Fox News' Steve Harrigan underwent what he described as three "phase[s]" of the controversial interrogation technique known as "waterboarding," on camera, concluding that the technique is "a pretty efficient mechanism to get someone to talk and then still have them alive and healthy within minutes." Psychologists have asserted that "such forms of near-asphyxiation" can lead to long-term psychological damage. However he says that the technique is "a pretty efficient mechanism to get someone to talk and then still have them alive and healthy within minutes.
Any form of torture has its draw backs. For example, torture will get the detainee to confess to anything just to get the torture to stop. On the flip side however, without the presence of fear and pain, that torture methods bring, detainees will tell you nothing. There has to be a happy medium where the detainee can be forced to talk and come away unharmed. Waterboarding seems to be one of those methods.
Here is someones account on its affects...According to The New Yorker magazine, Keller asserted that "such forms of near-asphyxiation," like waterboarding, could indeed lead to long-term psychological damage:
Some victims were still traumatized years later, he said. One patient couldn't take showers, and panicked when it rained. "The fear of being killed is a terrifying experience," he said.
These are some of the risked taken in order to stabilize security. Those that fight against us don't play by our rules let alone the Geneva Conventions. To provide security some times methods like waterboarding are necessary and essential tools. I am not saying I am in favor or against torture but I am saying that we need methods that instill fear into the detainees to get them to talk.
Here is a story on the reporter that underwent waterboarding. Source & Video
On the November 3 edition of Fox News' On the Record with Greta Van Susteren, Fox News correspondent Steve Harrigan underwent what he described as three "phase[s]" of the controversial interrogation technique known as "waterboarding," on camera, concluding that the technique is "a pretty efficient mechanism to get someone to talk and then still have them alive and healthy within minutes." Harrigan stated that his report on waterboarding was meant to show viewers "what exactly it is," whether it is "torture," and if "the U.S. [should] use it."
The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.
According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess. The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.
Friday, January 16, 2009
My Thoughts & others on Waterboarding
Posted by Nate at 2:22 PM
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3 comments:
Nate,
I think you've been watching too much 24. It's beginning to numb your conscience.
Not surprising that of all news correspondents, someone from Fox News would do it. They seem to be the ones to defend the last 8 years of political lawlessness and disaster. Although interestingly enough, Fox News stopped short in labeling waterboarding as either torture or not torture.
Harrigan said:
"as far as torture goes...this seemed like a pretty efficient mechanism to get someone to talk..."
So in other words, efficient torture is OK. Interesting. I can only imagine how much fun government officials would have coming up with the parameters of "efficient".
According to Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, the definition of torture is:
(noun)
1a. anguish of body or mind; b. something that causes agony or pain.
2. the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure.
3. distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument
(transitive verb)
1. to cause intense suffering to
2. to punish or coerce by inflicting excruciating pain
3. to twist or wrench out of shape.
Interpret these definitions at your pleasure. The Bush Administration obviously did.
The definition does not distinguish between physical and mental pain, but as we can read in this post, torture has psychological repercussions.
I disagree with your words, Nate, that there needs to be "a happy medium where the detainee can be forced to talk" ...and that... "we need methods that instill fear into detainees".
First of all, "happy" is the last adjective that should be used in describing a method of torture. Second, torture, including waterboarding, is never a necessary and essential tool to ensure national security. Period.
Yes, those against whom we fight do not play by our rules...frankly neither do we.
But even if we did abide by rules, our enemies do not because they do not constitute a recognized government within a recognized country. The USA is bound by laws set forth in the Geneva Conventions (because we signed it) while terrorists are not (because they did not sign it).
It needs to be understood that this conflict is not the conventional Reagan-Cold-War-era conflict. We are not fighting another country, yet WE ARE a country with a legitimate government. This means that while terrorists do not abide by the rules of international conflict, we must!
Besides, let's take this back to the basic values and aspirations upon which this great country was founded! Why should we stoop to the level of our enemies, using guerrilla warfare and barbarian techniques? America should be the example to the rest of the world of eternal principals that ensure unwavering respect for basic human rights and the rule of law. When we disregard these essential characteristics of a healthy society, we hide our light under a bushel and others look no more towards Lady Liberty.
I am much more proud to be American now than I was before Nov. 4, 2008. It is the assurance of drastic policy change coming to this country and the world in four days, including throwing out a number of destructive executive orders under Bush. It's a proud year for America (with exception of the failed free market philosophy).
I know Happy wasn't the best usage of vocabulary but it was what came to mind and I think you know what I meant by its usage.
Secondly, yes I have been watching too much 24 I need to better manage my time; however, it has not numbed my senses or brained washed me into believing in torture.
Let me better explain myself. I don't condone torture and I know that it is inhuman and in many circumstances not efficient.
However, like I said before we need methods or mechanisms that instill FEAR into our detainees otherwise they have nothing to lose and will not say anything.
I was merely pointing out that water boarding appears to instill fear while at the same still not physically harm the victim. So what I am saying is that we need something that does what water boarding can do.
Thirdly, I had a discussion with some of my co-workers about torture and there thoughts. We came to a consensus that first anything that is inhuman shouldn't be used but we need to instill fear. We compared the need of fear to the disciplinary action of spanking.
Spanking today is highly downplayed and looked down upon as an ineffective means of punishment and in some cases some call it abuse. We came to the consensus that spanking is actually a very effective tool when used properly because it instills some fear and the child is losing more than just privileges which in reality only takes them back to square one or normality. They need to experience some sort of negative experience in order to properly be disciplined.
Many children in today's society are much more unruly then before and it is due to the lack of proper discipline. I am not saying that everyone should use spanking but I am saying that better forms of discipline need to be used in order for them to learn their lesson.
As for spanking, if used properly it can be effective. The time when it is not proper is when it is used to take out frustration and anger on the child. When it is used to merely teach a lesson and show that their are consequences then it, in my eyes, is effective.
As for interrogation purposes I believe it is the same. When we need information from our detainees, trying to reason with them is in many cases ineffective. We need to do more than just take away privileges we need to present them with a negative experience and instill fear. As long as we don't make it personal and take out frustration and anger on them and proceed with it as a form of consequence then I believe this is the medium that is needed.
The methods to use to achieve this I am not certain what should be used. I am a human person and don't think that such methods of physical pain should be used.
Sure they have rights and law should be adhered to but when they are not willing to cooperate then we have to move to the next step just as you would with disciplining a child.
So what I should say then is that I don't support and believe in torture but I do support and believe in methods of interrogation that instill fear with no or minimal physical harm, and only to be used as a last resort.
War, as horrible and inhuman as it is, there comes a time when it is necessary. There also comes a time when stronger interrogation methods are necessary but like war it should be a last resort.
We should be human and fair to all. Captain Moroni did just this. He only would go to war when necessary to protect his countries liberties, family and religion. He offered the Lamanites a chance to live if they would take an oath. But if they would not reason with him he had them killed. This was necessary for the protection of his people and country.
There comes a time when human and fair methods of reason fail and that stronger forms of reason that instill fear and the feeling of loss are needed.
Once again I restate my position that I am against torture but I am for strong methods of interrogation that instill fear and loss with no or minimal physical harm, and only to be used as a last resort.
I know you don't condone or believe in torture. I'm sorry if my words led you to think otherwise. I also understood that you where advocating some type of technique that would use fear as it's main tool, as opposed to physical damage and pain.
But what about psychological damage?
So you say we need something that does what waterboarding can do. Fair enough. But you don't think that something could be waterboarding, do you?
I agree with you on spanking. We were spanked as kids and I don't hate Mom and Dad for it. Looking back I think it was effective to a point. Of course, now Mom and Dad would regret it saying they shouldn't have, but in hindsight that's easy to say...not so easy to abide by in the moment. I haven't spanked Benson...yet...but I've sure wanted to sometimes. :-)
Now, that said, it needs to be remembered that spanking, and torture, is negative reinforcement. Why not give positive reinforcement a try? Instead of spanking the child, why not explore an alternative means of persuasion?
(Believe me, with Benson, it has been AWFULLY difficult to be creative in coming up with alternative methods of discipline in an effort NOT to use negative reinforcement, like the time-out chair or verbal threatenings).
Diplomacy would be positive, military action would be negative. Perhaps bribery would be labeled as positive, while torture would be negative. Pay the guy money to get the info you want instead of burning his fingernails.
So, yes, using the fear of losing something that's important is quite the motivating factor. Perhaps a valid example of this can be found even in most religions, where the fear of eternal damnation, fire and brimstone, or simply the loss of a future blessing could very well motivate the believer into an alternate, albeit the commanded mode of behavior.
But this type of example gets a little murky in comparison to earthly examples because now you're dealing with convictions and love for deity. Love ought to be the motivating factor in adhering to religious covenants, not fear. And since love is the last factor motivating foreign policy, this therefore is not a good example. But I hope you see where I was trying to go with this.
I think your Captain Moroni example is right. Anyone who was not willing to live in peace was put to death. Better without them than with them. Our society is fashioned in a similar but less extreme way. Jail is for those who won't live in peace with society, and indeed, sometimes capital punishment is decreed.
But remember that before any punishment is given, an individual must be convicted in a court of law. NO ONE at Gitmo was, until thankfully recently, given the possibility of being convicted in a court of law. Once convicted, if the punishment is waterboarding to get further info, then so be it. But until lawful conviction under the auspices of a legitimate judicial system has taken place, I don't think any strong interrogation methods should be used on incarcerated individuals.
I think your position is a good one to have: no torture, but strong interrogation methods with no physical harm, only to be used as a last resort. I can buy that.
The discussion we've had in this country, however, has been this: what constitutes strong interrogation methods, and which ones fall under the definition of torture as defined by the Geneva Conventions?
The problem so far has been the rationalization that an interrogation method is used without any discussion about it or without any classification of it. We need more of both.
I think the following question will always exist: How can we ensure peace and security while honoring and respecting human rights? We are all still trying to figure that out.
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